Arun and JoJo have a candid chat with Anil Achyuta – a founding member of TDK Ventures and recently ranked as #2 of the Global Corporate Venturing’s Rising Stars of 2021– and yes, you’ll get to hear how he feels about that.
You’ll also get to hear about what’s in a name? To some folks, an awful lot – to others, not so much. Have a listen and find out what it’s like to fit into a new culture – how you need to adapt and how others should adapt to you.
We hear so much about diversity and inclusion these days, but we don’t hear as much about what putting that into action looks like.
Sometimes we all just have to laugh at ourselves – and there’s no shortage of that here.
Hello, everyone, welcome to SKRAPS a podcast where we explore the stories behind people who drive science and scientific innovations. If you’re ever wondering why we have a typo in our podcast name, it’s because it “sparks” spelled backwards. And sparks being the sparks of scientific brilliance that we normally explore. We also thought it might also be a good way for all of you to remember us. And one request from us to you is, please ensure you interact with us on social media on Twitter and Facebook, or on LinkedIn.
We’re going to start this episode with a disclaimer. As it happens, there are always some instances during a recording that snafus happen. And we might very well decide to splice or edit out any mistakes that we make, or sometimes our guests might actually have to redo. But in today’s episode, we have deliberately tried to present things as is, warts and all. That’s only because today’s guest is a very, very good friend of mine. And we have collectively decided that sometimes the non-sterile, frank conversation that people have are the ones that people need to hear. This is part one of our special topic in science that I’m pretty sure no other science podcast has ever broached. Welcome to the show.
Thanks, Arun. And we’re gonna go a little bit off script with this episode. We’ve all seen the renaissance of diversity and inclusion efforts in this past year. And if you know me personally, you know that I’m probably one of the most politically incorrect people out there. This isn’t to say that I’m disrespectful at all, or I hope I’m not and I apologize if I have been to anyone in the past. I just come off sometimes as blunt. So, Arun and I figured that we wanted to talk about the subject in a slightly different way than the HR manuals instruct us to do, we want to hear about the personal sides of biases, we want to hear personal experiences and perspectives. We will be respectful, but we hope to be able to have a meaningful conversation, not a lecture. We might take a few shortcuts with our language in order to facilitate a clearer understanding, and hopefully make a little bit of difference with this one. I’m sure that I have a lot to learn. And I learned best when words aren’t minced. I hope you’ll join me in laughing our way through an important but all too touchy subject today.
Our guest today is my brown brother and a very close friend, Anil Achyuta. Anil actually serves as the venture partner at TD ventures. And prior to that was a consultant.
Let’s Let’s so venture partners have a very different meaning in the world of venture capital. So, if you just say investment director,
okay, Anil is the investment director. As you can see, he corrects me, right off the bat. So we have a very, very frank relationship. And while it might be a very normal bio that you might see, in most websites, I think what makes Anil interesting is his experience across science, technology and the business of science, but especially as an immigrant who has chosen America as his home, and I think Anil started his career as a chemical engineer, originally from India, and emigrated to, to the United States with a master’s degree at University of Massachusetts, and he then joined Draper Labs as a postdoc researcher, and rose in the ranks to actually lead a team,
Northeastern University. You’re botching this all up.
Let’s redo this whole bloody thing again.
Okay, I remember to mute myself, it’s probably so much easier.
All right, let’s do this. Now, one more time to stop Jojo. We’ll do it all over again. Sorry. So
I’m just gonna keep rolling.
Yeah, let’s cut the venture partner thing. I’ll tell you because venture partners are specifically brought into venture capital funds, who are subject matter experts. Okay. So let’s say I’m a neuromodulation guy and let’s say NEA wants to do a deal in neuromodulation. NEA will bring me on as a venture partner, and I will be given some X amount of capital to invest. So venture partner is a specific sub domain expert who would want to invest. I’m not as Specific sub domain expert. I’m a generalist at TDK ventures. So I think it has a very different meaning.
Yeah. All right. That’s good. And so tell us a bit more about this is a bad idea it made inviting me onto the podcast
So I knew I this was a bad idea – inviting Anil onto the podcast.
Not at all! This is priceless. And Anil, you are the only one who can talk over Arun so far, by the way.
So tell us about what got you hear me, just so that I don’t mess up anything about your bathroom.
But look, I’m a chemical engineer by training, and I really enjoy the intersection of science business. And I’m in the business of science and, and I really wanted to make an impact. I think that’s the ultimate goal. For me to start in, in this trajectory was, you know, my dad, and my cricket coach had always told me do epic stuff. And I felt that the one way to do epic stuff is to focus on creating products and new technologies. And that’s what got me into r&d. And once I got into r&d being a top line kind of guy, I wanted to create more and more and more. And one thing you realize, being an r&d, you know, this Arun, is that it’s very hard to scale yourself. And you cannot build more of you at scale. So either you have to work yourself to death, or, you know, you have to find a way to make an impact in a more sustainable manner. And the other shortcoming I saw was that sometimes markets fizzle out. So you do something and you, you give your blood, sweat and tears to a project, whether it’s early stage innovation in life sciences, or otherwise. And what you realize is three, four years down the line, you’re probably the only one who cares about that project. And you probably know the most in the world, probably top three. But, you know, you might write a thesis on it. And that’s it. Right? I think, I don’t think my dad has read my thesis, you know, I sent him my physical copy. And he said he read the acknowledgments. I was like, that’s great. That’s, that’s what you need to read. Right?
And he sounds exactly like me, because I stopped listening to whatever that you just said there when you started talking about cricket because as, as is the tradition, when two brown people get together, I think we need to talk about cricket and not so much in a traditional way to educate any of the Caucasian people from the from the United States, I think it’s more to actually celebrate one of the biggest moments of our lifetimes which is…
Anil 8: 12
Cheers (glasses raised!)
Can you tell everybody what that was?
Well, India, just one series or a Test series in Australia. And it’s a momentous occasion because they beat Australia in ground called Gabba. And and gabbeh. Does anybody
Gamma amniobutyric acid? Ha, ha. No, it’s not.
No. No, it’s a cricket ground where it’s supposed to be never penetrated before. It’s almost like a fort where Australia can just not be beaten because it’s it suits the Australian cricketers their physique, their way of bowling or pitching whatever you want to call it. But India actually… Downunder they were at least five people short from their main team. And all these substitute guys on the bench kind of stepped up. And specifically, I want to pay tribute to this one guy Mohammed Siraj, his father was an auto rickshaw driver back home in India, and
so “auto rickshaw” is basically a tuk tuk for the non-Indian audience.
That’s correct. And he basically grew up from nothing and dedicated everything for cricket and his dad died. And he didn’t go to his dad ceremony, but he actually went and got five wickets and got India to win the game. That was really emotional.
That’s pretty spectacular. I mean, I love all forms of sport and I’m learning more about cricket from my partnership with a rune and having Jared Kimber on the show. But it’s just sport, it’s universal, we I feel that way about football, American football. Some people, you know, everybody’s got that team that they identify with and cheer for. I think it’s perfect. And we should share more of that.
Yeah. And I think it’s called just one last statement here. For me, as I always like to have the last word, not to the presence of Anil. It is really the fact that it’s called Test cricket, because it tests everything. And it is the best analogy for what life throws at you. So it’s played over five days. And for all the people who actually think that there are no results, I think no results can also produce some spectacular displays of bravery and everything that we saw. So they played four matches, and the score line was to one in India’s favor. So India won two matches and, and Australia won one match. Therefore India won this best of format seems with one match drawn. And they batted against adversity, and were team, multiple members of the team down, etc, etc. So if you ever know of an Indian, Pakistani or Sri Lankan, or a South African or an Australian, or a Kiwi, or a Caribbean, West Indian guy, as we like to call them, please ask them about this particular achievement, because the whole Cricket World is celebrating, except if you are an Australian.
So anyway, we will leave that Anil, I think we should talk about the topic, I think it’s very, very good that you brought that up that topic of Mohammed Siraj moments that are just well, because what also happened on the field there was that I think there were some few kind of racial comments that was also thrown at him in one of the matches where he actually had to complain to the officials. So that is an excellent segue into kind of your journey, because I know that you were very much a promising cricketer in your school days. And tell us a bit more about that side of you, which most of us don’t know, we all know that you were, you were a chemical engineer. And you were at Draper labs, you garnered multiple kinds of grants from NIH, and DARPA, etc, and then moved over to L’Oreal. And then now over a TDK ventures as the investment director. Now tell us about kind of the part of you that most people don’t appreciate. And let’s get into the topic of kind of how our experience has shaped us as people.
Yeah, I mean, look, I’ll be honest, I don’t think I was ever an amazing cricketer or anything like that. Actually, I have a very good friend, Vishal Krishna. he’s one of the editors in back home in India. And he, he is the captain, our team. And he always said “Anil, you were just good enough to be in the team, but quite moderate enough, or not good enough to make it to the national side,” right? It was it was just at the Goldilocks zone, where I kind of excelled when I played with ordinary players. But I kind of fizzled out when I played with the real guys, right?
So, but, but I think a lot of things have shaped up from cricket. I would even say, if there’s one thing I’ve learned in life, it’s got to be from cricket. Or I’ll be even more sort of explicit. I think everything I’ve learned in life is from cricket. The rest is just technical, right? It’s just some subject matter stuff. And I think people it’s very easy to learn subject. Because all it takes is hours. But the stuff that you learn from the game is stuff that you never forget.
I’ll give you one instance. This was I think I was about 11 or 12 years old, I started playing cricket about nine. And I was pretty good at that time. You know, as you get older, you realize you suck, right, because you start playing with the real players. But when I was 11, I was very, very good. And I was playing against this school team – Bishop Cotton’s back home in Bangalore, and the Cottonians as they called them, they were usually belonging to upper middle-class slash rich, rich kids, right. And so they kind of look down upon people who are lower middle class. or poor people, I kind of fit probably the lower middle-class side not poor in Indian standards. So, and I was standing at the boundary on the fence, right? And one of these kids shouted, you know how people haze and you know, they say stuff when they’re sitting outside and they, they want to just throw you off balance, right? And one of the kids said, “Hey, hit that bugger.” The kid next to him said, “Hey, actually hit that beggar.” And, and that – it really kind of reminded me that, okay, is this how rich people think? And, and it affected me in such a drastic way, I really didn’t expect it to take that much of an impact on my life that I decided when I was leaving to the United States that I will never let my parents ever, ever think about money. And, it really was a product of that, of that interaction. And I promised my Dad, I’ll take care of you. And, and my wife has been so supportive with me. We actually – before us buying a house, we bought my parents a house. So, for me that that kind of learning, you don’t get from some PhD some degree, you know, I think that degree stuff is it happens. It’s good. You know, our teachers are great. We learn something we’re forever grateful. But this kind of teaching that you the game teaches you is far beyond. And I think I will carry that for the rest of my life.
Yeah, and I think whenever we talk fondly about cricket, I think it’s so much about and whenever people say I think you’ll hear most people who follow cricket, say cricket is a religion. And I think the reason for that is not so much about the fact that any other sport, it’s better than any other sport. In fact, I love NFL and college football as much as I love cricket. But it’s really about the fact about the learnings that you actually take from playing the game, and the learnings that you actually take from experiencing the game where nothing’s ever given. And you actually have to fight for every single thing in the game, if you’re a sportsman. And as an audience, I mean, you kind of live through that if you’re a fanatic fan, you actually live through that in the eyes of the athletes, and that’s the best reality TV ever. And it’s also the biggest life lesson ever
Another thing about that, Arun, is that as a sportsman, that there’s a fundamental thing that you learn, right, especially when you play competitive sports, I’ve been competitive for about five, six years, you know, on the trot, As in playing with like real, you know, state level international level, folks. I didn’t make it there. I was just behind those guys. But what I realized was the two things also, which, again, influence me even today on a daily basis. One is when you play with the best people, they get better over time, it’s a little bit like wine, they kind of just get better and better, you run harder, they just want harder. And by the time you the endurance right, of these people is so high that you will either have to just drop in there dead, or you just have to get smarter. And that’s one thing that I learned, even when I work. I’m not I’m not saying I’m not telling people to outwork or overwork or exhaust themselves. But the world is very large. And there’s a lot of people who work very hard. So if you say, “Oh, I want vacation, I want this amount of money,” you’re not going to make it very big. You’ve got to be able to work hard. And and I think that’s something that I carry even today.
Second one is loss. I think how do you … How are you good loser is a very important thing, right? Good loser doesn’t mean I want to shake hand and have a beer. Okay? A good loser is – you shake hands as a gentleman. And the next day you come in, and you come in twice as hard. Right? That’s a good loser. Meaning you take the learning of what you did wrong and you really come hard at someone else. And that I think really influenced me.
I still you know… It’s funny I there was this Global Corporate Venturing had this council that count votes for top 50 people in corporate venture capital in the world. And, um, they survey about 20,000 people across the world. And they ranked top 50. And I knew I was in the top 50. And yesterday, the rankings came out, I learned that I was number two. And the first thing that gave me a mind was who’s number one? And I said, Okay, how am I going to be the number one? And how do I change the landscape? How do I change that bar? Right? running faster? How do I just get that delta moved away as much as I can?
It’s also very Indian parent attitude. Because every time I got I did really well in academics, and as you probably have shared experiences, enough experiences, Anil, I think every time I came second, I think that the first question that my dad asked was, who was first? I it’s like, that shapes your mentality to actually kind of push yourself to the hilt, but
and we have a very, very different mentality, I think, with parents today. And at least in the US, and especially, I would argue, California is my experience as a parent, but so much of it is, “oh, you showed up? Let’s give you a trophy. Oh, everybody should win.” There are no, I mean, there are literally sporting leagues for kids, you know, whether you’re playing a sport for the first time or early on, and they don’t keep score. And there are no winners, there are no losers. And that goes on. I mean, kindergarten, early ages, fine. Let’s all just learn how to play the game. But as it advances that mentality in that treatment continues, so that we’re coming up with these kids, who, literally, they’re in their professional lives and don’t know how to accept or respond to criticism, because they’ve been so coddled. And I, my perspective is that that’s an American thing. I could be wrong.
I think look, everything is important with context, right? And the context is, you know, I grew up and I look, I, when I came to the US, I had less than 200 bucks in my pocket. Okay. Um, and I had a $2,000 debt to buy suitcase, buy all these books that were expensive, you know, all these, you know, hardbound books, high quality paper, why do you need it? That was the first question I asked, Why do you need this high quality book? It’s not like you’re going to put it up on the price, you know, you’re not going to do it, you’re going to read it. It’s done. Right. So I was like, Let’s buy the cheap book from India, you know, it’s the same content.
Anyway, I digress. But my point was, the context was that the loan I took had some 16% interest rate, or so. And, you know, I was really hard pressed when I came here. The first thing I thought was crap. 25 bucks for the car ride, I had like a taxi right from the airport. And tip? who the hell gives? Tip? Why? Why should I tip this guy, he’s doing his job, you know? So, because the tip the whatever the 220 percent of that 25, whatever the number is, right? Five bucks, you know, basically, that cut my bank by, you know, 15%, right? Yeah, the rest of the money was less than 150-170 bucks. So, the context right from where we come from, sets that precedent where you just have to be really good. If you’re mediocre, you just can’t do much. But here, you know, when you have everything like my son, I mean, the guy has everything, you know, he’s like 15 months old, and he’s like a king, you know. So, participation, all of that maybe, maybe that’s the that’s the right way to think about it. Because on to ensure that you, you play well, against everyone, and so on. And so, but context is everything, but I agree with you. It might be kind of hard for people to get on. But my context was that I grew up, lower middle class, and second, I was competing against the best people. If you truly want to be the best, you got to learn how to lose because you will lose. Badly.
So that’s I mean, that’s a phenomenal experience, and I wish more kids regardless of where they grew up had that experience. But when you came from that mindset in a country that in a society and culture that embraces hard work the way that you were raised, did you have this preconceived notion and wasn’t realized? If so that Americans are soft? That we’re lazy?
No, it depends on who you hang out with. Um, I think if you’re hanging around with, like those athletes that I was talking about, right, they play hard to. And they’re tough. And they it’s funny, they’re a little bit like some of my European friends were saying, Americans are soft on the outside hard on the inside. But Europeans are hard on the outside, but very soft on the inside. And I think there’s some truth to that, of course, these are all, you know, stereotypes. And, you know, they don’t, you know, apply to everyone. But the point is, I think a lot of Americans are extremely bright. And if you’re hanging out the right people, you will compete like exactly how you would compete back home. In fact, they might be a little more intense.
Yeah, they’ll be honest, I think, I think coming from a very similar culture, both of us are southern Indian, our borders just separated by one state border and 350 kilometers between both our hometowns… in a way, I think we came to the United States, not because it was easy, but because we could actually show that we could excel in a given area. And we wanted to kind of build that framework around that, and therefore be that. So I think, the most common thing, and let’s kind of maybe, unless we actually start an Anil, and maybe you can kind of lead us there.
So, there are some very interesting stereotypes that actually come from right, because when you’re coming from India, you’re always prepared for what you should be encountering, like, for example, the American High Commission, in my hometown of Chennai, or Madras, as it was called, I still call it Madras, they actually have sessions for kids who actually get into grad school, or who actually go there and get a visa. So, they basically hold the session information session. And simple things like what you’re told, and I’m sure most people will actually have their accent like paint, and they will, they will kind of change that when they grow up. And when they mix with more kind of like, more American folks, etc. Because we have a very strong kind of intonation, which, interestingly, I find us, Indians try to kind of become more like, we kind of tend to speak like the people around whereas if you see, what struck me was how some of the Europeans, especially if you’re Italian, or Spanish, they would never give up or never change the way they would speak to anybody else outside, you have to make the effort. And I think that was a big stereotype where I think while me and people who are looking like me, were trying to kind of fit into the culture and you kind of try to fit into the culture, you actually found that other people who actually were not, and that was like, that affects you, because at a subliminal level, you’re thinking, Oh, why aren’t they trying to fit in, but then they’re almost as talented and as good as you in your program that you do that you’re working on? And then you realize, Oh, that’s different. And then I had a very different experience where there was a very
Arun, Indian accent is not the hardest accent in the world. Okay,
it is not
Yeah, pretty bad.
We still try to actually make it and sound more American or…
Of course I do. Yeah. I sound different when I speak to you and I sound different when I speak to her. Yeah, I sound different to my wife. So, and my in laws, you know, the white part of my family.
Look, I think, I agree with you, I think we grew up in a place where we were taught to blend in, especially you know, I can say more about Bangalore, you go to Bangalore, everyone tries to speak to an English even though they have no idea how to speak English. And, and same thing they do that with not Indians, you know, they speak in Hindi. And, and their Hindi is probably like the worst. I mean, some of them speak atrocious Hindi, like they make very, very basic mistakes like me. I still don’t know Hindi. Like I play cricket here in Boston, and Most of my teammates speak Hindi, but I have to converse with them in English because I have this terrible accent, but my point is that we can we grew up in a place where we were taught to be more empathetic towards other people. Because I who wants to say, huh, pardon, please, no one wants to do that. So I just want to roll my R’S speak like this [flat, American intonation]. And it’s so much easier to be like this, than say, [in heavy Indian accent] “Hello, how are you? I’m going to come today,” you know, it’s very difficult for me and…
Anil and I never speak like that to each other. I’m just clarifying. I think we just beat each other when we just really get upset with each other. But
I used to be a TA and I remember this guy. He’s a friend now, Chris McLaughlin. He was in the class. And he’s actually slightly older than me, because he had more experience than me, he had worked in like oil companies, and he had come for grad school, And, and, you know, I was, I think I was teaching thermodynamics or something like that. And God knows how I did, because I don’t remember any of it now. But Chris, you know, kind of pulled me aside after the class and is like, “man, no one can understand your accent. Like, you gotta, you gotta roll with the punches here. Just just let’s go have a beer.” And then you know, we talked and, and slowly, I learned that there are certain words like “rectified,” you don’t use states. And you use simpler words, and you choose a single syllable word whenever there’s an option between a single or a double syllable. and stuff like that, right. And of course, after I met, my wife, I kind of she started teaching me how to, you know, say certain things, how to not say some things, I still struggle with it. But I was a certain shocker for me when I met some Italians and French people. Because for them, that accent is cool. And you know, it’s a, they can go to a bar, and I’m sure they’ll have a lot of people close by to them. Right? And oh, who’s that person, the accent, you know, and there’s that thing going, but if you talk with an Indian accent, I’m pretty sure people will be like, okay, that sambar guy, I’m gonna stay away from this guy.
I think there’s also though there’s speaking as the American here, that there’s sort of this expectation that we’re Americans, and especially if you come here, let alone anywhere else in the world, you should assimilate to our culture. And it’s only recently that people are starting to say you can still be an American, and maintain a connection with your culture. And, to the point of the Italians and the French and some of the romance languages. I personally, it’s easier for me to understand those accents because I marginally speak Spanish. But in my world travels, all that people seem to care about is that you try. So now I’m going to be really embarrassed because of your Hindi situation where they’re like, “Oh, God, please don’t just don’t even try just to save us all the embarrassment.” I try and speak Spanish when I’m in Mexico or Spain or Spanish speaking country, but now I’m, am I doing myself a disservice if I’m speaking so poorly? Or is the effort enough?
No, I think again, you deal with empathy first. Correct? So, I think effort is more than enough. Yeah. I don’t even expect people to be empathetic, I just expect people to understand, right, understanding our position, and that’s totally fine. If they want to be empathetic, even better.
I personally think that the most empathy that you can show to a person of a different culture who doesn’t look like you comes from actually learning how to say their name, because I think it actually goes a long way in just establishing that personal connection with people because you can just completely stay away from that and refer to them in first person and completely go let go of their of calling them by their name, but I think just understanding how they pronounce it, even though you can’t ever say it in certain situations. I mean, there are names that I can’t say in other cultures and other nationalities, etc. But just putting in the effort to at least learn how they say, and then saying that I can’t roll the ‘r’ is it okay if I call you This and they actually put up with the same amount of thing that I actually had to put up and I was called “A-rahn” for a long time and then I tell people that no, I’m called “A rune”. And because you has a very different way of, of, of pronunciation in the Indian culture compared to kind of the other languages, etc. So
I’m definitely guilty of that I shy away from… if I feel like, I’m gonna butcher somebody’s name. I mean, their name is so personal and that’s and you’re right Arun, and I need to get better about that because I will, I will refer to Hey, how are you? Instead of taking that that embarrassing step to say, “you know what, I really struggle with your name, can you help me out? Give me a cheat sheet here.” And so that’s… I need to work on that.
Well, my name is always a conversation. It’s a…
Go ahead and say your name
my full name is Anil Kumar… Harapanahili (I know I got that wrong – please forgive me, Anil) Achyuta … So,
I’m gonna call you Anil, if that’s okay with you.
Yeah, that’s fine. I mean, actually, I have my PhD advisor, Shashi Murthy with us. Because he told me at some point, I remember when he said, I think your name should really shorten it. Take the first part of your first name and last part of your last name. I think you’ll do a lot of justice to a lot of people and professionally, it’ll be easier for you to go by Anil Achyuta. And he’s the one who gave me the idea to call myself Anil Achyuta. And I’m now a Anil Achyuta.
I had a board member of a company that I was working for and, this older, much older gentleman told me that I should change my name because it’s unprofessional. And I almost turned back and I said, Well, you should change your face because it’s ugly. So how does I appreciate from the lazy perspective, and I appreciate the shortcut on your name, but how does that feel? I mean, that’s part of you.
Feels great. I think again, remember empathy first, first thing, right? You want to you want to stick to society and you want to embed in, in a certain society. There are certain things you sacrifice, right. And, you know, frankly, speaking, I was always Anil Kumar. H.A, back home in India. Okay. We have initials with every name. Okay. I took that as my dad’s first name, who cares? “Hanapali” [editor error on that one, I promise you and I’m sorry] is a state or not a state… It’s a village that my family, you know, hails from? Who cares, right? I mean, it’s, it’s like I’ve never been there, ever in my life. I don’t even if you give me a map, I won’t even know how, where to where, where it sits, right. So. But the problem is, they ask you to anglicize your name. When you write in the passport. They say, first name, middle name, last name. And I’m like, first name. Hmmm? Okay. And then I was like, Where do I put this? My dad is like, middle last. Just put it in the last, you know, my dad was like, just do it. And then, okay, we just put it in. Then it became my name. And it’s just so strange, silly. But my actual first name is Anil. My last name is Kumar. That’s, that’s actually what my name is.
So this is right. I think I have a request for our other Asian brothers given at most Indians don’t recognize that India is in Asia. But so it’s part of Asian continent, and is that I was actually startled when I first came here that they would be there was actually another kind of fantastic, fantastic, most intelligent Chinese student in my biophysics program at Ohio State. He was so good. And he always went by his first name, which was Hwe Hoang. Like he just called it he made it make sure that everybody called it the same name, but every other person and that’s why I absolutely love him and I still remember him to the state even though we’re not in touch. But then I actually thought it was really really weird. And once I had a conversation with him, and I said, Why are a lot of the people with Asian like Chinese and heritage, or Chinese immigrant students change their name from their Asian names, rather than telling people how to say it, why are they actually changing the name to an American?